Modern slot machines use a computer to generate random numbers, and these determine the outcomes of the game. The important thing to remember is that the results are truly random. The game doesn’t work on any kind of cyclical basis, and slot machine jackpots don’t become due. Slots don’t get hot or cold, either.
Class III: a catch-all category of games that can’t be considered Class I or II, like slots, roulette, blackjack, etc. Knowing the hurdles Native American casinos faced to allow Class III slots, gaming companies began developing Class II gaming machines: games that play like regular slots but are technically fancy versions of bingo. Originally, casinos installed slot machines as a diversion for casual gamers. Unlike traditional table games (such as blackjack or craps), slot machines don't require any gambling knowledge, and anyone can get in the game with a very small bet. This idea proved to be a monstrous success - slot machines eventually moved off the sidelines to become the most popular and the most profitable game.
This casinos slots seem to be pretty 'tight' and love to 'tease'. I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?
Administrator
I am a frequent player at Casino Arizona Talking Stick Resort. I have been playing slots @TSR for about a year. I did well during 4th quarter of '14. I starter to almost recognize a for sure losing machine pretty quickly. Sadly, can not recognize the winners at all =)
This casinos slots seem to be pretty 'tight' and love to 'tease'. I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?
I would ask at the rewards center/player's club. They should tell you (they tell me when I ask in a new state/jurisdiction). It's usually not up to the casino; it's up to the state or other regulatory authority's compact with the state. This is a good article on how it works in general; it's a federal law that governs the terms of what the NA casinos are allowed to offer and what the states have to let them do, but it's still negotiated state by state. The rule of thumb is, if a class of gaming is allowed anywhere in the state for any purpose, the NA casinos can offer the same class of games. Class II are player-banked, with the casino taking some kind of rake. Class III allows casinos to offer house-banked games. That's just a very simple explanation, but the Class is considered public information, so they should tell you if you ask.
Edit: This is a gov't-issued blank compact application that defines and includes Class I, II, and III gaming for the state of AZ, so I guess it depends on what level the tribe wants to offer/qualify for there.
teddys did a pretty good review on Phoenix-area casinos, and specifically mentioned that they can offer Class II and Class III gaming (though no true craps or roulette). Doesn't mean the Talking Stick doesn't have a mix of II and III slots, but it's a start to know that much.
It's been my experience that Class II slots MUST in some way display a link or reference to the bingo game they're based on, even if it's a really small icon or something. The machine probably shows it somewhere in the instructions/pays button as well (that most people don't use).
Administrator
It's been my experience that Class II slots MUST in some way display a link or reference to the bingo game they're based on, even if it's a really small icon or something. The machine probably shows it somewhere in the instructions/pays button as well (that most people don't use).
I agree. A class II slot should have a little bingo card in the corner of the screen. Often there is a button that says 'daub' instead of 'spin.' If you have any doubt, it is probably class III.
What do i look for?
Does the 'play' button say 'play', or 'play/daub'?
If you scroll through all (and I do mean ALL) the help and paytable displays, does it list a bingo paytable?
Does the front of the place mention that it's a 'Class II gaming facility'?
Does the machine have a display of a bingo card on it? (Sometimes - particularly on the 'keno' machines, it's mostly hidden - I've seen it on the topmost video screen, up by the slot-topper blinking light sign)
Is there a sticker on the machine that says (something like) 'Prizes awarded based on bingo play'?
... so then, it might be Class III.
... And ask at the player's club booth if they have any Class II machines, and how you'd tell the difference.
I've played both Class III and Class II machines; they're both vaguely similar in that you stick money in, whack the button, and maybe get some money back. My subjective observations say that Class II behaves quite differently as the number of other players changes; sometimes better, sometimes not.
Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian
Community
Casino Arizona & Talking Stick Resort
https://gaming.az.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/2014%20Annual%20Report%20FINAL.pdf
Page 24 indicates that the casinos have operated Class III gaming since 1993, when the first compact went into effect. All casinos wishing to offer Class III Gaming must have a compact with the State of Arizona, and the Casino Nevada and Talking Stick Resort is run by the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community, who have such a compact.
There are sixteen tribes with casinos and six tribes that do not have casinos, but have slot machine rights that can be leased to other tribes, only the Hopi tribe does not have a compact.
In fact, the Pima-Maricopa Indian Community (see pages 24 & 25) had, perhaps, the hardest battle to finally get a compact. It spanned multiple lawsuits, a general election initiative (Pima-Maricopa was successful) and then even more lawsuits over a ridiculous span of three years. I'm sure there was a reason that Arizona made it so difficult for this tribe, but don't care enough to look further into it, and ultimately, the reason must have been ridiculous because the State was eventually forced to negotiate a compact with them.
Moreover, State of Arizona law, pursuant to the compacts, dictates minimum theoretical payouts for slot machines at 80%, video poker at 83% and keno at 75%. (See Link 1)
Although BBB's link does allow for both Class II and Class III machines, I've called the casino and they've not called back, yet. I'll try again tomorrow.
In fact, the Pima-Maricopa Indian Community (see pages 24 & 25) had, perhaps, the hardest battle to finally get a compact. It spanned multiple lawsuits, a general election initiative (Pima-Maricopa was successful) and then even more lawsuits over a ridiculous span of three years. I'm sure there was a reason that Arizona made it so difficult for this tribe, but don't care enough to look further into it, and ultimately, the reason must have been ridiculous because the State was eventually forced to negotiate a compact with them.
Maybe Az. didn't want competition for their scratch off tickets?Could be Zcore knows something about this?
Thanks for putting this info out, I am going to be in the Phoenix area in the next few weeks.
l i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random!
that exclamation point suggests the article would have you believe class 2 is better. That is the opposite of the usual opinion, so I would take what it says with a grain of salt.
I suppose it is possible there are times, depending on number of players, when class II treats you as well or even better. The one thing you can say for sure is that it is idiotic to think you are playing a game of skill like video poker only to realize you are playing on a class II. Players dislike that for sure.
I wouldn't mind seeing that article if it is a link you can post.
Maybe Az. didn't want competition for their scratch off tickets?
Could be Zcore knows something about this?
Thanks for putting this info out, I am going to be in the Phoenix area in the next few weeks.
As far as I know every slot in Casino Arizona is Class III. Same as at my Casino. The Compact does allow for some minimal use of Class II slots, but I don't know of any Tribe that is using them.
ZCore13
I am a frequent player at Casino Arizona Talking Stick Resort. I have been playing slots @TSR for about a year. I did well during 4th quarter of '14. I starter to almost recognize a for sure losing machine pretty quickly. Sadly, can not recognize the winners at all =)
This casinos slots seem to be pretty 'tight' and love to 'tease'. I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?
How Do Class 2 Slot Machines Work
If you are looking for a better gamble and would like to get comps I would highly recommend you keep driving east of Talking Stick to Fort Mcdowell, the games are much looser and they are far more generous with comps.
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Summary: Class II slot machines are found in Indian casinos (Class III is Vegas-style, or RNG). The reason why Class II exists is because originally, Indian casinos were only allowed to offer bingo, including electronic bingo. Modern Class II slot machines look and act just like an RNG slot machine.
At least two people must be playing in order for a Class II machine to run (one time I was unable to play because no one else was there). A bingo server draws a number about once a second. When you hit spin, the computer generates your bingo card and then it goes through all 23 possible winning patterns (22 normal patterns like T, corner spots, diamond, etc., and then this bizarre final 23rd one that a blackout in 75 balls wins a penny). A winning bingo pattern makes the reels stop at just the right spot so you win that much (no different than an RNG slot machine, just a different way of determining whether you win or lose). I read the help files on the machine but it doesn't explain everything. It doesn't explain how you get a red screen. Sometimes when you win, the screen turns red and the reels spin again, and when this happens, you always win something which is more than what you just won (i.e., not a regular free spin which can lose). I have never won a penny (that weird 23rd winning pattern). Probability of winning on a single payline is about 1 in 5 with the distribution of wins similar to an RNG machine, with lots of small wins and few large wins.
I've played these early in the morning when the casino is almost empty and at busy times to see if I can detect any pattern of advantage or disadvantage, and I can't tell. I've won when it's dead and lost when it's dead and I've won when it's busy and lost when it's busy.
Does anyone know if there is a player advantage or disadvantage to playing Class II slot machines when the casino is quiet or busy? Is the probability of winning exactly the same for bet 3 as it is for bet 1? (with the only difference being that the jackpot pays a bigger multiple of bet amt, similar to video poker)
Administrator
In general, the competitive element of a class II slot accounts for only about 1% of the return. It will generally go to whoever completes a certain pattern first. You could be competing with other players anywhere in the casino or even the world. The competitors may be playing on entirely different themed machines too.
The other 89%, or so, of the return comes from 'consolation prizes,' which are fixed prizes for fixed patterns.
How Electronic Slot Machines Work
It is that 1% of the competitive element that makes them legal.In my opinion, if you're going to legalize slots, then just legalize them. Quit kidding yourself that class II slots are really bingo.
I've designed some class II slots so know a fair bit about the regulations and how they are designed.
In general, the competitive element of a class II slot accounts for only about 1% of the return. It will generally go to whoever completes a certain pattern first. You could be competing with other players anywhere in the casino or even the world. The competitors may be playing on entirely different themed machines too.
The other 89%, or so, of the return comes from 'consolation prizes,' which are fixed prizes for fixed patterns.
It is that 1% of the competitive element that makes them legal.
In my opinion, if you're going to legalize slots, then just legalize them. Quit kidding yourself that class II slots are really bingo.
Hey Wizard, I hate to necro this thread, but I was wondering - how is the RTP calculated for class II bingo slots when you never know how many people are going to be competing for that prize? As you mentioned, it's a small portion (1%), but how is that 1% calculated, if it can be? And wouldn't a busy casino theoretically bring down the RTP of the machine? Is there some sort of universal assumption on the average numbers of players that might be in on a game or something?
Thanks so much!
Class II slot machines look and act just like an RNG slot machine. Does it similar to skill based gaming machine or slot machines?
I would say they operate most similarly to Pace-O-Matic machines. Some other machines just, “Play,” the pre-seeded pool of spins over and over, whereas (from what I can tell from the patents) POM’s randomly select a result from the remaining pool of spins, kind of similarly to the Class II central server.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
I would say they operate most similarly to Pace-O-Matic machines. Some other machines just, “Play,” the pre-seeded pool of spins over and over, whereas (from what I can tell from the patents) POM’s randomly select a result from the remaining pool of spins, kind of similarly to the Class II central server.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
I wouldn't say Class II slot machines operate like POMS. The results are actually completely random & based on a math model, just like traditional slots. The difference is that the randomness is not based on where the reels land, it's based on the outcome of the bingo draw. Making it play 'like a slot' as a designer can be challenging because getting the desired volatility etc can be difficult to translate from traditional math models.
I wouldn't say Class II slot machines operate like POMS. The results are actually completely random & based on a math model, just like traditional slots. The difference is that the randomness is not based on where the reels land, it's based on the outcome of the bingo draw. Making it play 'like a slot' as a designer can be challenging because getting the desired volatility etc can be difficult to translate from traditional math models.
I agree with you, and that's actually kind of my point. The Class II slot machines randomly choose a result from the, 'Pool,' of remaining results in the central server and POM's do the same exact thing, according to their patent. The difference with POM is that the entire pool of results seems to be exclusive to an individual machine, (or maybe they can sometimes be linked) but either way, it's randomly chosen from the remaining results.
Administrator
Hey Wizard, I hate to necro this thread, but I was wondering - how is the RTP calculated for class II bingo slots when you never know how many people are going to be competing for that prize? As you mentioned, it's a small portion (1%), but how is that 1% calculated, if it can be? And wouldn't a busy casino theoretically bring down the RTP of the machine? Is there some sort of universal assumption on the average numbers of players that might be in on a game or something?
Thanks so much!
The way it tends to work is the game will group 2 or more players together who made a bet at nearly the same time, say within a second of each other. Then the first player to complete some particular pattern (in the fewest balls) will win a very small prize. I wish I could take it further, but that's about all I know. When I do a class II game, the game maker will somehow tack on a competitive element, I only get asked to do the 'base game.'
Administrator
I would say they operate most similarly to Pace-O-Matic machines. Some other machines just, “Play,” the pre-seeded pool of spins over and over, whereas (from what I can tell from the patents) POM’s randomly select a result from the remaining pool of spins, kind of similarly to the Class II central server.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
The ones I have seen don't work like that. The outcome is based on a fair bingo card and ball draw. I'm not saying there isn't anywhere that does it the way you describe, but I think I can speak for California (when there were class II), Oklahoma, and New Mexico.
I agree with you, and that's actually kind of my point. The Class II slot machines randomly choose a result from the, 'Pool,' of remaining results in the central server and POM's do the same exact thing, according to their patent. The difference with POM is that the entire pool of results seems to be exclusive to an individual machine, (or maybe they can sometimes be linked) but either way, it's randomly chosen from the remaining results.
Hmm, as far as I know, Class II (Bingo) slots are not selecting a result from a pool of remaining results or a pool at all. Class II bingo is legal because you are actually playing Bingo behind the scenes, so mechanically, it must actually operate exactly like live bingo.
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